96: Curious Souls (with Aaron Alexander & Sue Hitzmann)
Episode Transcript
Summary: Sue Hitzmann and Aaron Alexander are curious about other people. So how do these two well-known interviewers exercise their curiosity and their “openness muscles?” And, how do they know when their openness is going too far? Listen in as we discuss what makes us feel each good, connecting our personal journeys to our professional work, and much more.
Watch the video and get the full transcript at Til or Whitney’s sites:
- Til Luchau’s Advanced-Trainings.com
- Whitney Lowe’s Academy of Clinical Massage
Whitney Lowe:
Welcome to The Thinking Practitioner Podcast.
Til Luchau:
A podcast where we dig into the fascinating issues, conditions, and quandaries in the massage and manual therapy world today.
Whitney Lowe:
I’m Whitney Lowe.
Til Luchau:
And I’m Til Luchau. Welcome to The Thinking Practitioner.
Whitney Lowe:
Welcome to The Thinking Practitioner.
Til Luchau:
The Thinking Practitioner Podcast is supported by ABMP, Associated Bodywork & Massage Professionals. ABMP membership gives professional practitioners like you a package, including individual liability insurance, free continuing education, and quick reference apps, online scheduling and payments with PocketSuite, and much more. ABMP CE courses, podcasts and Massage & Bodywork magazine always feature expert voices and new perspectives in the profession, including Whitney Lowe and myself, Til Luchau. Thinking Practitioner listeners can save on joining ABMP at abmp.com/thinking.
Aaron Alexander:
We are here.
Sue Hitzmann:
We’re here.
Aaron Alexander:
Ha ha.
Til Luchau:
Ha ha. Welcome everybody. A special episode of this podcast, whatever channel you’re listening in. I am Til Luchau. I have a special, amazing co-host with me here today, Sue Hitzmann, the creator of the MELT Method with over 3,000 instructors around the world and who knows how many hundreds of millions of followers online. Sue and I wanted to do something for a while. We were brainstorming and we thought Aaron, Aaron Alexander.
Sue Hitzmann:
I love that. One of my favorite humans on the planet of all times.
Aaron Alexander:
That is so cool and humbling to hear because I have so much respect and admiration for both of you, for both of you for the last, I don’t know, at least decade. I don’t know how to keep track, but for a long time, so I really appreciate that. It’s really humbling, honestly.
Sue Hitzmann:
Well, thank you. We love you.
Til Luchau:
Aaron. Yeah. You were the host of the Align Podcast. You’ve had amazing conversations with amazing people for a long time. Anything else you want people to know about you and what you do?
Aaron Alexander:
Oh, I mean, we share congruences in Rolfing, went to the Rolf Institute. Did you go to Rolf Institute, Til? You did, right?
Til Luchau:
Yeah.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah.
Til Luchau:
Yeah.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. And so background originally was obsessing about bodybuilding, a lot of insecurity, putting the pieces together wildly incorrectly. That led to a lot of injury, chronic pain, just existential dread throughout my mind and body. And then started studying, went to school for massage therapy and then Rolfing and studied psychology for a bit in Hawaii. And got into martial arts and surfing and other ways of bringing back integration into the body, an ease. Started the podcast about eight years ago, wrote this book called The Align Method about three years ago or so, and now it’s been really been a transition into teaching people how to work with themselves as opposed to just doing one-on-one work in manual therapy with a single client or five clients throughout the day. How do we be able to educate people on how to work with themselves is really what I’m been up to.
Til Luchau:
Well, that’s cool. I hope we get to talk about your book.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah.
Til Luchau:
Honestly, mostly I just wanted to hang out with you both and just you’re both people I admire a lot and learn from, and there’s all kinds of ways I want to unpack that and explore that with you. Sue, what do you want to say here at the onset? What do you want to toss in the ring?
Sue Hitzmann:
I don’t know. I’m just so grateful to get to hang out with you two, because I just know this is going to be a great conversation. And again, mutual respect for all of the pioneering education and work and just the tenacity and the brightness of both of you guys. I think it’s really inspiring. So I’m just grateful to be in the company of you.
Aaron Alexander:
Thank you.
Til Luchau:
What do you say we pick Aaron’s brain a little bit, like we plan to do, and then to see where that goes? We going to-
Aaron Alexander:
As long as I can pick back, I’m here for that.
Til Luchau:
Right on.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah.
Sue Hitzmann:
Can I go first?
Til Luchau:
Please.
Sue Hitzmann:
Okay. So of all of my podcasts that I will listen to while doing anything … I now live in Florida, so I’m driving my car. So great opportunities. And Aaron, you always have great people to listen to. I don’t even know. I’d love to know three things. How many podcasts have you done since the inception? And I know this is going to be a hard one, but if you had to think of one podcast that you had that either was so impactful or so influential that it pops up into your mind still today, was there one of all of your podcasts that was really … like, “”This was probably one of my most profound or most exciting or something?”
Aaron Alexander:
I think probably the most exciting for me is someone that’s like … would be notable to you guys, maybe not notable to everyone, but Bruce Lipton, The Biology of Belief.
Sue Hitzmann:
Of course.
Aaron Alexander:
Author of Biology of Belief. Not just-
Sue Hitzmann:
Was a great podcast. I heard it.
Aaron Alexander:
Not just because it was Bruce, but because he invited me out to his house in … I think it was maybe Santa Cruz or Santa something in California. And I went out there with my girlfriend at the time. We spent the whole day with him and his wife, and he gave me a big jar of his homegrown cannabis, and we just had a really cool, fun, deep connection for the day. He was someone that was really pivotal in transitioning my relationship of just exclusively mere physicality into more of this bridge into the mind-body relationship when I was I think 16 or something like that.
And so that was really a major pivotal point for me in my life. And then to be however old I was, 33 or 34, something like that, and to get to go 20 years later and spend the day with this person that had just had such a massive effect on me, that was a big thing. And I think as far as number of episodes we’ve done, I think maybe like 460 or something. I’m not really sure. We’ve done it for the last eight and a half years, so it’s been a while. It’s been two four-year college educations for me is the way that I see it. Each year it’s like, “Cool. I got another. I graduated again,” and I’m on my third now.
Sue Hitzmann:
I love that. I love that. Yeah. Bruce is so influential. I actually went to the consciousness conference earlier this year. I don’t know, it popped up in my feed as all weird things. As you’re looking for things unconsciousness, sure enough, Google and Instagram is putting things in front of me. And there was a consciousness conference and Bruce was one of the speakers. I was like, “I want to go to a consciousness conference and see what they like. What’s that going to be about?” And it was really kind of mind blowing, just the ideas that are out there and some of them just seem so far out there. And then you learn a little bit about it and you’re like, “Well, I mean, these are probable ideas. This actually sounds like it makes a lot of sense,” especially with Bruce’s work of just … I believe it, between the ages of zero and seven, you’re getting programmed. You’re like an empty computer and you’re putting in all these programs and then as you get older, you’re still working off the programs.
And when I understood that from his work, and others, but he was definitely very influential in that idea, you do look at your life in a different way. You’re like, “Wow, I can see why I’m reacting to this person because they’re triggering this thing in my past of how my dad used to do that to me.” And then instead of reacting, I just kind of watch it move by. And my ability now to consciously change that situation for the better is brilliant because of that type of work. I love that, Bruce. I love that interview that you did with him too.
Til Luchau:
No, it was.
Sue Hitzmann:
He’s really fantastic.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah, I just was reading about Galileo and the heliocentric model of that everything’s revolving around the earth. I think that that’s an interesting thing of how for a while, a long while, that was the common perspective of the church. And that was like if you went against that concept or idea, you were considered a heretic. All of his books were burnt. He was put into house arrest for the last nine remaining years of his life, and then he died in I think 1642. That was like our great-great-great-grandparent. That wasn’t a long time ago that it was illegal to think.
Sue Hitzmann:
Exactly.
Til Luchau:
Questioned the existing belief system. That’s right.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah, get burned up the stake.
Til Luchau:
And he was tortured. He was tortured for the sake of his soul to try to get him to recant some of these things he was saying. And at least the way I understand the story, for a long time he said, “No, listen, I just got to go with what I observed. I just got to stick with that.”
Sue Hitzmann:
Right. This is science.
Aaron Alexander:
And so that’s not to say that one ought believe everything that sounds like lunacy, which lunacy sounds like of the moon, but it’s to be open to varying perspectives. And I personally, my ears perk up more when there actually is suppression of information. And so when people are put under house arrest and is illegal to say or think a thing, I’m like, “Hold on, I see a pattern.”
Sue Hitzmann:
I’m going over to their house.
Aaron Alexander:
Wait, I’m not saying nothing.
Sue Hitzmann:
I want to be in house arrest with that person.
Aaron Alexander:
Why are they being suppressed? If it’s a stupid idea, why don’t we just let it go?
Til Luchau:
There’s something here that I want to jump on. Maybe underneath that is this idea of openness to experience or openness to different ideas or openness to ideas that are out of the norm.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah.
Sue Hitzmann:
Well, the world is still not really ready for that. And then again, I think that there’s a lot of that though going on right now in different genres, in different things, like the whole, “What’s your pronoun?” and things like that, and these ways of trying to understand one another. But I think that by doing these things can actually separate us more instead of really creating something that is all-inclusive as humans and to try to find more compassion and to understand one another more and to have more open conversations. But I think, and Aaron said it a second ago, Galileo wasn’t really all that long ago. Right?
Aaron Alexander:
No.
Sue Hitzmann:
That we were doing that then, but that stuff still happens now. I mean, you see it happening all over the place. And then when you write a book, you kind of get that, where people are like … if you write something that’s a little off from what other people say, you get shamed and ridiculed and beaten down. But it’s how you react to it that I think really counts, it’s our reactions to the world, what are going to create either calmness or craziness.
Aaron Alexander:
But also-
Til Luchau:
Tipping my drink to that.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah.
Aaron Alexander:
That’s okay. So whatever that is, 300, 400 years ago, that still seems kind of long, for a while. You look at the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, and I think Pol Pot was the name of the dictator, if I remember correctly. I was just out there, it was like 10 years ago, so I’m not super savvy on the information at this point, but I think that was 60 years ago or 50 years ago. We have to look up exactly how long ago that was. But again, it was a murdering of the intellectuals. If you think too much, we got to get you out because we got these new ideas here and we have an agenda. And I’m not even making this … Well, it seems like I’m instigating some type of political dialogue, but that’s not my intention. I’m more suggesting this just more for freedom of thought and also compassion for other people’s perspectives.
Til Luchau:
Okay. Here’s a question-
Aaron Alexander:
And this could tie back to the body of integration.
Til Luchau:
Yeah. Okay. We can go to the body, but I got a question for you too.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah.
Til Luchau:
You, Aaron, and then I want to hear from you too, Sue, how do you each know when your openness might be going too far out? Because you’re both really open people that are willing to be surprised. That’s beautiful. I want to celebrate that and I want to spend most of our conversation there if we can. And yet around that is some sort of line that says, “Okay, wait a minute. I don’t know.” Maybe it’s that kind of paradox between wonder and skepticism or something like that. So how do you personally know when that needle is tripping for you?
Aaron Alexander:
Sue?
Sue Hitzmann:
Oh, you want me to go first?
Aaron Alexander:
You’re a lady, Sue.
Sue Hitzmann:
I am a lady.
Aaron Alexander:
I would open your door if there was some way to open your entrance into speaking.
Sue Hitzmann:
Thank you, Aaron.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah.
Sue Hitzmann:
I guess, how do I know I’ve run to far? I actually think I have quite a grand amount of constraint, and I think I’ve learned to be that way. I grew up in a family where you had to tell them everything. Even if they hadn’t asked you what you were doing, you were telling them what you were doing, and you just always had to say. So to me, I just think I’m selective. When somebody asks me a question, depending upon what the question is, I might actually say to them, “Why do you ask?” Or I might ask the question back to them, “That’s an interesting question. What do you love, blah, blah.” Right? And I put it back to them because there’s some other thing that they want to talk about. And so I find that as an opportunity to have a conversation, rather than answer a question.
So I think on that, just as a human, that’s kind of my mindset. In my career, I think for me, I am a non-absolute human. I am never like, “This is it and that is not.” I am not a black/white person. I feel like I’m middle of the road. I find great interest in not knowing and then going out there and learning, so that I do know. And then I think it just opens doors for more learning. I think that that’s probably more my come from, is I don’t know how far out there I get in my thoughts, beliefs, feelings, or my communication with others.
Til Luchau:
Yes, the middle way. Aaron, can I change my question a little bit?
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. Change it. Yeah.
Til Luchau:
Where do you fall on that spectrum between too open or too discriminating?
Aaron Alexander:
My background would be too discriminating, which comes from a place of, I think, some level of insecurity of feeling like I could be perceived as too open. And so I would hyper compensate with excessive reductionism and pragmatism and scientism. And I was very like, “Okay, if it’s not measurable, if I can’t hold it, I don’t even want to mention it.” There hasn’t been some double-blind study, some empirical data, I don’t think it’s even worth bringing up. And I’ve transitioned much more into actually trusting intuition, which is a dirty word in the modern podcast.
Til Luchau:
Is that the new dirty word?
Aaron Alexander:
I was talking to Paul Saladino a week ago or something on my podcast. He’s the carnivore guy on the internet. One of the carnivore guys.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah. He’s wild.
Aaron Alexander:
But that was one of the things that we were talking about, was the concept of intuitively eating, which sounds like just such an airy-fairy, nonsensical concept, but it’s also deeply true and deeply real. But the way to get to a point of actually having some level of clarity within one’s intuition takes a lot of self-work and introspection and cleaning. And also I think, tandemly with that, it’s that internal cleaning of one’s own mirror or one’s own looking glass. And also simultaneously being open to holding complete diametrically-opposed perspectives in as equanimous a way as you possibly can, even though you probably will have some type of bias just naturally, and that’s okay.
But even holding your own bias with as much equanimity as possible. And then from there, if you’re able to navigate that, then it’s coming into, okay, well what feels good? And what feels good, this goes outside of empirical realm and also actually steps into it as well, because science is just chasing intuition largely, but stepping into like, what makes me feel safe? What makes me feel like I feel like I have an expansive feeling sensation in my chest, in my abdomen, in my throat? What makes me feel like, “Oh, I noticed an exhalation when we started communicating that way. We started thinking that way?” Okay, now we might be … I mean, I would say we almost absolutely are, but we might be tapping in to some deeper wisdom that exists within the body that’s largely been kind of forfeited in much of modern culture.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah. Well done.
Til Luchau:
Yeah, I like what you’re saying. I think I relate to it in that I think I’m trained … and maybe family of origin, also trained to be so skeptical, that it’s actually a muscle I exercise, the openness muscle. I actually have to take things and go, “Wait a minute. I don’t know everything. Everything is a perspective.” I guess the other big thing for me is having traveled and lived in different cultures, at some point you realize, “Wow, there is so much of this is just a construct and that people are so amazingly-“
Sue Hitzmann:
All of it is just a construct.
Til Luchau:
All of it’s just a construct.
Sue Hitzmann:
It’s all a construct.
Til Luchau:
So anything I believe is true is actually suspect to my own questioning. I’m so skeptical, I question even myself, and that ends up me being really open.
Aaron Alexander:
And then you can get it yourself into a pickle of paralysis by analysis, where you’re just not doing anything and you’re just stuck in the questioning.
Til Luchau:
Yeah. Right.
Aaron Alexander:
So at some point, there is a time to take a stand and there is a time to take action. And that’s the thing that’s one of the most challenging obstacles for me, is, okay, when do I choose? Because it’s kind of almost can be cowardly. You can disguise cowardness in discernment and just be like, “Oh, well, I’m open to this and this.” Well, at some point you need to take a step forward, sir or missus.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah. So I think that this whole realm of consciousness and understanding what are the constructs of our lives. And again, if you start going down that rabbit hole, and I’m listening to a lot of Daniel Dennett, a lot of Alan Wallace, a lot of even physicists talking on the mind and what is the mind and things like that. I think you get to a particular age where … and again, I was talking to Neil about this, when I was a kid I really think I had a belief that when I became an adult, I was going to know everything about the world. I would just know everything because my dad seemed to have known everything, and I just assumed I would know everything too.
And then you get to 20 and you’re like, “Okay, there’s no way. Is this all I know by 20? I’m never going to catch up.” And then you get into your forties and you’re like, “Wow, I really just don’t know anything about anything that’s really relevant and important about human existence.” And then again, does anybody else really care or is it just me? Who is, on a daily basis, thinking about the meaning of life, the purpose, my purpose? Is this just a hologram? Is this real? You know what I mean? Are we in a simulation? So I think that it’s even gotten me to look more and understand AI more and how these amazing people like Lex Fridman … I listened to a lot of his podcasts and all the guys that he’s talking about, and the Turing machine.
You start hearing these things and you’re like, “Oh, my gosh, are we going to create AI that’s so much more superior of all things than human that why would humans need to be here?” Could it be that consciousness could be perceived by a machine? Could a machine create its own type of consciousness and wipe humanity out? I think to myself, why would I be thinking about this? But there are things that I’m now thinking about that I had never considered an idea because when I was a kid we didn’t really have computers. We were the first kid on the block to have a computer. So now where we are today, I feel …
And again, Aaron, you started with this. Just a few hundred years ago, your 400 years ago, you got Galileo. Well, in just my lifetime, I have seen the human race change, the way that we’re moving, the obesity rates, all of these things. And you’re seeing it escalate. And I wonder where we’ll go in the next hundred years, where technology is bringing us so quickly. Will we keep up or will we be wiped out?
Aaron Alexander:
I think there will be a split. There’ll be the ones that go within and go into the body and the ones that go peripherally. And I feel like I don’t personally feel as though the technological age is going to go as linear or even exponential as I think it’s easy to perceive it to do so, based off of just the math of it. Because that it neglects the biological human part, and we jump to these really fantastical ideas of we’re all going to be bionic everything, and we’re going to live forever, and we’re going to have chips in our brains, and we’re going to have the internet and our iris of our eyes. And we’ll just kind of blink in a way and we’ll get to Google search anything. Much of that is not taking into account the systems that the biological organism, the sentient being that is you, and the miraculous being that is you, has been riding on the foundation that it’s founded on for millennia.
And if suddenly we just shift in a 50-year period to everything is robot, I think there’s going to be a lot of turbulence in that. And I think that there’s something-
Sue Hitzmann:
I think so too.
Aaron Alexander:
… incredibly gratifying about actually being on the beach with your partner and in Bermuda or whatever, and actually getting real sun and actually having the threat of danger, and actually having the potential of sex with a real person. And the smell of food that’s actually perfusing your olfactory system from a deep old culture that comes from a grandma and a grandma’s grandma, like a recipe throughout the ages, compared to something that’s a bunch of ones and zeros that got mapped out by some nerd in San Francisco or maybe Austin. And I think that the fantastical ideas will come to … I think there’ll be some level of … I don’t know if a rude awakening, but awakening of sorts, where people are like, “You know what? I miss biology. I miss my body.”
Til Luchau:
Yeah. You’re just-
Sue Hitzmann:
Really. I mean, biology is so underrated. And I think that our origin is biology. I think that we are made of bacteria, and over time we’ve evolved into these humans. I don’t think that somebody just dropped a human down on the planet and we just started having babies and propagated. I don’t think that’s how it worked. I think the earth has been here and life has been here before we were here, but our ability to transform this world with more unity, I think it would be amazing. I hope that in some parts of my life, I see more of that unity of humanity, rather than all the separation.
Aaron Alexander:
I actually have-
Til Luchau:
I’m thinking about how the-
Aaron Alexander:
Oh, go ahead.
Til Luchau:
… biology needs some help almost, at least for my life. There’s a choice point between, “Okay, am I going to go to the beach and do all that amazing stuff you just described, Aaron? Or at least most of it. Or am I going to get on my phone?” And my phone is not interesting because some nerd in Austin or Silicon Valley made a bunch of ones and zeros. It’s interesting because it knows what I like, but it serves it up to me at just the right time in a way that it predicts is going to be irresistible.
Aaron Alexander:
And it’s using the phone and technology as a tool to get you deeper into yourself and deeper into your relationships. And the deeper the thing … There’s like a quote from someone, that they, he or she, whatever, said that old people teach you the things that don’t change and young people teach you the things that do. I like that quote a lot. I think it’s a convergence between the old and the young. You see that in the culture that we live in, in the United States or Western culture, there’s kind of a neglect of elderly. And you see that happening with technology as well. It’s not a coincidence that that’s a conciliate way that we’re navigating the world. It’s kind of like, “Ooh, the newfangled stuff.” Like, “Oh, my God.” Lex is my neighbor. I could throw a rock to his place from here. And we’ve had this-
Sue Hitzmann:
Lex Fridman?
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. We’ve had this conversation, maybe it was a month and a half ago or something, and he was talking about the … they’re going to have bionic legs and bionic arms. And it’s going to be like, people are going to be so much more attracted to that because why would you have … He’s like, “Aaron, why would you have this normal bicep that can only curl 65 pounds or whatever?” I don’t actually know how much I could curl, but whatever amount of normal human weight, “When you can have a bionic arm and there’s going to be bionic Olympics and it’s going to be this whole thing.” And my retort to that, to Lex is like, “Well, why do you practice Jujitsu, Lex? Why don’t you just get a gun, bro? A gun is so much more-“
Til Luchau:
Or play a video game.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah.
Sue Hitzmann:
Why do you play guitar? Why don’t you just listen to the radio?
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. Why do you do these human things? Why do you run 10 miles on a regular basis? It’s because there’s so much freneticness that manifests in the human organism as a product of being immersed in technology, like the static of technology. There’s a bit of a barrier of sorts between human and technology. And the more we push into that, it creates this … for me, this anxiolytic effect of sorts. And then I need to go back into my biology. I need to cold plunge. I need to jump in a river. I need to exercise. I need to just do a meditation. I need to connect with a real human being, in person. And then I’m like, “Okay, cool. I’m starting to find homeostasis again.” I think the technology thing, it’s almost like you dip into it, but if you start to try to become the thing, I just don’t see it working personally.
Til Luchau:
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Sue Hitzmann:
The thing I worry about though is with young kids today. I can’t remember who. Again, I had so many conversations with so many people these days, where they were talking about kids who are using the 3D goggles, that there’s an increased chance of depression because they’re spending so much time in goggles that when they take it off, they’re like, “I don’t want to be in this world. I like being in this one.” And so because their minds are young, it’s actually altering their neural correlates, where they start associating the 3D world with the human 4D world. And I think that’s also why these kids walk into a room and shoot people because they’re shooting people all of the time, and there’s a who cares they shoot somebody? It’s like they do that all the time in their games. So I think that’s where I worry about the technology and how we’re giving it to kids.
Do we bring our kids out? Do kids still hug trees? Are they still in the grass or are they going to the beach? Are they experiencing nature or are they spending more and more times in front of a fake world that’s in front of them? And again, like Lex and all these other guys were always talking about like, “This is my vision,” and maybe this is really all it is. Right? All that’s existing is what’s in front of me. Even if I close my eyes, I can see what’s in front of me, but with my eyes closed, if you ask me to see what’s behind me, I wouldn’t know either. So I don’t know. I think that’s my perplexed diaspora.
Til Luchau:
That hits me in the gut in a way, I’ve got to say, what’s happening with kids. And as a parent, those were the biggest battles we had, me and my kid, as he was growing up. He’s grown now. And it really was those moments. I could see him stepping out of the device and going, “I don’t like this out here.”
Aaron Alexander:
Oh, really?
Til Luchau:
I could see that. Oh yeah, I could see that in him.
Aaron Alexander:
Wow.
Til Luchau:
And he’s such a clever guy that our battles were about me trying to regulate that for him at the time that I didn’t think he could regulate it himself. It didn’t look like, to me, he could regulate it himself. But he was so ingenious that he found all kind … He found the bolt cutters to the clip the lock off of the router lock. He looked up how to do a brute force attack on the password to get into the router, so that he could get back into that world. It was scary as hell. And like I said, it hits me right in the gut now. But now as an adult, it’s pretty cool to see the relationship he and his friends … I’m not saying all people. I think it’s a struggle for all of us too. He has with technology, where he’s so minimally interested in, say, social media or things of that nature, or his phone. He spends so much time making things and doing things. And what he makes are amazing technological devices. He’s a drone guy.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. That was-
Sue Hitzmann:
And an amazing drone guy for that.
Til Luchau:
Yeah.
Sue Hitzmann:
Amazing instruments.
Til Luchau:
Oh, that’s right. You know him. That’s right. You know him.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah. Yeah. Ansel is amazing.
Til Luchau:
Yeah.
Aaron Alexander:
I was listening to a thing, I don’t know who was saying this, but it was around how to incentivize people to want to make better decisions, to be supportive for their ecosystem and the planet and themselves and all that. And that the common theme is kind of the Catholic fire and brimstone, “We’re all going to die. We only have 50 more crop cycles left, and the ice caps are melting, and we’re going down.” And that doesn’t really motivate people to the same degree that inciting people to fall in love with the world would.
Til Luchau:
Behavior change. We don’t change behavior through guilting people, shaming people.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. Probably the reason that your son or someone’s son is in that place, that may or may not be setting themself up to have just say for … without going into too depth, taking their body into a more homeostatic state would probably be perhaps some form of escapism from this world that they’re not really actually deeply in love with. And they’re not wrong for not catching fire with being like, “Man, I love exercising in the sun. I love it. I love the feeling in my body.” Or, “I love connecting with other people. I love being challenged. I love being kind of like, ooh, a little scared, a little anxious, and overcoming that.” I’ve learned through exposure therapy of various different sorts of just exposure training, slow, step by step, that, wow, the reward on the other side of that exposure feels so good. I want more exposure.
And so a lot of the reason that a person, young or old, might be “escaping” into their phone or their TV or whatever, there could be some kernel of shame or avoidance within there. And if our tactic is telling them why that’s so bad for them, that doesn’t mean anything. Or shaming them deeper. It’s like, “Yeah. Bro, I already feel kind of like a loser.” I don’t really say that because that would be terrible to say, but at a deep-down level, there might be some type of insulation around some layer of shame. And your shame isn’t supportive for redeeming me of the shame. That’s not everybody, but I think there could be something to that, of like, “Huh, why doesn’t a person like to just go out and be in the sun? What could the resistance there be?” And so I think it’s like how do we incite people to fall in love with nature and fall in love with their bodies and fall in love with their intuition? And fall in-
Sue Hitzmann:
The human experience.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah.
Sue Hitzmann:
I mean, it’s a privilege. It’s a gift to be in a body, I think. Otherwise, you’re just part of the ether, spinning around into the energy of whatever it is we’ve come from, I believe. And to come into physical form and have an experience, I think even for the bad shit that happens, it’s a great learning of humility and grace and gratitude. And I think, well, my biggest lesson is just that hate is not the opposite of love. Fear to me is the opposite of love. Because when you act in a state of love, things flow. Just like love does, it just flows. But you act in a state of fear, you think you’re losing something, something’s being taken from you, you’re scared that you don’t know enough, whatever, if you act in a state of fear, I think you fuck things up.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. And can you really fuck anything up? It’s getting into right, wrong, bad, good. And a lot-
Sue Hitzmann:
Well, or the circumstance to which one is in, actually you might actually react in a way, when you’re acting in a state of fear, that makes things worse. You’re now fighting for your life. You’re fighting for someone else’s life. You’re fighting for what’s right. And then that is a fight. And that’s not very loving. And I think we make a mistake of that. And that’s a learning. If you do it once, you might not want to do that again. You might actually, like I say, have somebody saying something to you. You’re having a reaction all inside your mind, like an Ally McBeal thing, where you want to punch them in the throat. But then you don’t, and instead you ask a question or you say something, and it completely diffuses the need to react in a violent way.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. But then sometimes making things worse is exactly what a person needs to signal change. So if you were always in prevention of, say, forest fires, for example, and you’re like, “Oh, put out the fires. Put out the fires,” you could hypothetically be setting yourself up for some cataclysmic disaster. And so if we’re in fighting and resistance of anything that could be perceived from our moralistic judgment is good or bad, it’s all you got to do is … I’ve felt pretty devastated around certain things in my life. And after the fact, I’d look back and that thing that I would do everything that I possibly could to push away was in fact the thing that actually brought me into a place of being able to change.
So I agree with everything you’re saying. And also I think there could be a place for things being “bad” and “good.”
Sue Hitzmann:
No. Exactly. Right, they’re learning curves. Right? Yeah. I get that.
Til Luchau:
If I can, I want to get specific to … or personal even. Because I see you both as people who bring your personal seeking and processes into your public work.
Aaron Alexander:
For sure.
Til Luchau:
Which I admire about both of you. I think you were talking about some really important things, but maybe in general terms. Where do you get challenged? Where do you get challenged to do this embodiment piece? Because you’re both amazing body people too. Where do you get challenged there and how do you work with it, and where do you fail and where do you succeed?
Aaron Alexander:
I get challenged all kinds of ways. I get challenged in a lot of comparison. That would be a big thing. The balance of exposure to the internet, is you get to be inspired by the “best in the world,” all the things. And you also have the availability to run this perpetual comparison game. And so that’s the thing that I have to be able to navigate within myself. And the thing that is the most supportive within that, it’s like comparison could be a comparable relationship to technology, absorbing yourself in technology, absorbing yourself in anything other than rooting in the things that truly matter, the invisible things that will always be there. The free stuff that makes you feel like that deep kind of visceral way, reinvesting bandwidth into that. And sometimes in my life
Til Luchau:
So comparison in terms of your bicep size or your audio size, or where is the comparison?
Aaron Alexander:
My thing would be more, I feel pretty confident in physicality. My main comparison would probably be like audience, career, business, book sales, program sales, stuff like that. And I can also simultaneously acknowledge, one, just how grateful I am and how just absurdly … I don’t know. I don’t know if luck is the appropriate word, but I’m just like, “Wow.” I have that as well where I’m just like, “Oh, my God, this is so unbelievable, how much I have to be grateful for.” And then also, there is the other train running simultaneously of, “Well, what about them?”
So I think that something that I noticed, I just got back from … I was traveling for a couple weeks, went to a bunch of different countries in Europe, and went to Egypt for a little bit. And during that time, something that I noticed is … And you guys have all noticed this, and anybody listening has noticed this, I think there’s a direct correlation of the actual joy that a person experiences to the amount of time they spend on social media and comparing themselves to other people or sharing about, “Oh, my God, I’m so awesome.”
And so that’s something that I find is an available tool, is a person, when we have such a plethora of availability of things that don’t really satiate our souls, whatever that means to an individual, they don’t make us feel good at a deep, visceral level. It’s like junk food for the soul.
Til Luchau:
Junk food, that’s what I’m thinking about. Yup.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. When there’s so much of that, you really need to have … If you want to feel better. It’s up to you. There’s no judgment. Feel however a person chooses. And maybe the way that you’re feeling right now is exactly perfect to arrive you at the place that you’ll be in one year, five years, 10 years. Who am I or anybody else to say. You’re perfect the way that you are. I’m perfect the way that I am. And if I do want to make a discerning effort to create change from where I’m at, and I’m like, “You know what? The way I feel right now it’s not good. I know that I can feel better. There’s a better version of myself in here.”
It’s actually, I think, writing out the things that make you feel better, actually creating a list of what makes me feel good because I might not know what makes me feel good. I might just be, every day, just throwing at the wall and seeing what happens. I don’t have any plan or organization around the way that I execute my day. And so I think outlining that, like, “Who makes me feel good? When I hang out with Lisa, there’s something about her.” There’s no judgment. I don’t actually know a Lisa, but there’s no judgment. They’re just very loving. They see the best in me. Okay, more Lisa. When I’m outside in nature, when I’m taking a hike, when I’m exercising. And so I think that that could be a supportive thing to make it be of value to other people as well.
Til Luchau:
You’re talking about consciously cataloging the resources, the things that make you feel good.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. You do that with your business. Yeah. You do that with your finances. It’s like the Peter Drucker quote, “What gets measured, gets managed.” So if we’re in what folks on the internet say is a mental health epidemic, and statistically there’s a trend going upward towards, from what I read, suicidal ideation and usage of anxiety medication and depression medication, and obesity, and diabetes. Statistically speaking, the trend of the herd, it seems like it’s going in a funny direction. And so if we were to look at it from an analytical lens or a business lens, I would say, “Okay, well, let’s extrapolate out and see what’s working and what’s not.” And actually write that stuff down and create accountability with yourself. Be the CEO of your own life and say, “Okay, what did I do today that actually was Chicken Soup for My Soul?” Or whatever that book is called. What’s that book called? Chicken Food of the Soul?
Sue Hitzmann:
Chicken Soup for the Soul. Yeah.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. Like, “Where did I do chicken soup today and where did I do Jolly Ranchers?” And write that shit down. If you eat 55 Jolly Ranchers in a day, whatever they’re called, and you write-
Sue Hitzmann:
People go-
Aaron Alexander:
… that down, you’re like, “Dear God.” Whereas if you don’t write it down, it’s just another kind of slippery, ethereal day. Like, “Wow. I feel kind of like, shit, but, oh, well.” But you write it down and you actually look at it, you’re like, “Yep, I had 55 Jolly Ranchers today. 55.” You’re like, “I don’t want to do that again. I don’t want to see that.” So that could be a thing.
Til Luchau:
That’s nice. You’re talking about a reflective process or metrics, but also then a time to sit and reflect and connect the dots.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. Just, what makes you feel good? Because you deserve to feel good. And that gets into a deeper layer of one’s belief system and their identity structure. Do you believe that you deserve to feel good?
Sue Hitzmann:
That’s right.
Aaron Alexander:
And that’s the thing. If you unpack yourself enough, you might come down to a place of like, “Oh, it actually doesn’t feel good to feel good, because I learned at some point that it’s dangerous to feel good. And if I feel too good, it’s going to get taken away. So I don’t want to feel too good.” So then it becomes more of a deepening process, to get to know the self. And it just more rewarding and weirder, the deeper a person goes. A common starting point that it seems like probably all of us had was starting probably with the body.
You start off with connective tissue and joints and my back hurts, or I have an eating disorder or something of the sorts. It’s more physical. And then typically, if a person sits with that long enough, it starts to dissolve into the deeper layers, where it’s like, “Okay, who am I? And what’s the belief systems that are holding these postural patterns and all of the patterns that I call myself together?”
Til Luchau:
Sue, is there a challenge you’re willing to share with us?
Sue Hitzmann:
I mean, there’s all sorts of challenges in life, but I guess on what Aaron was saying, as a human, I feel very satisfied with myself. I feel like I’m doing my very best to contribute to this world and leave it a better place than what I came to it. That I remember my grandpa saying, I said, “Grandpa, what’s the best job for me?” And he said, “Susie, if you can find out something that you love to do and people pay you for it, that’s the best job in the world.” I was like, “Oh, what would that be?” So I feel very privileged that I’ve been able to come into people’s lives and help them transform from the education I’ve had and from the experiences I’ve had. And it’s amazing when you get to stand in front of people and you get a lot of thank yous, you get a lot of connection, you feel transformation.
I think that that really keeps me going. I’ll side with Aaron on the whole … I’ve never really been into social media. I never did social media as a business owner. We got into the whole social media thing way too late. I’ve had things like, recently my social media accounts, Sue Hitzmann, I was impersonating Sue Hitzmann. And so they took that away from … So they took my page down. I’ve lost a Facebook page. So I’ve had fraud. I’ve had all sorts of crazy things happen in business that you would think would harden some aspect or I’ve had people say to me, “What’s your brand?” I say, “MELT method.” And they go to Instagram, they’re like, “Well, you only have 25,000 followers, so it can’t be that important, or something like that. And you just want to go, like, “What have you done, jerk? Why are my numbers so important?”
Because I know how many people I’ve affected, and really, does it really matter? I mean, when I die, is anybody even going to remember me? It doesn’t even matter. The only thing that’s important is what I’m doing right here and now. And the rest of it, I just let my team deal with. And I finally have a team helping me who say, “We can help more people. You could reach more people.” I’m like, “Help me to do that.” I don’t know how to do hashtag awesomeness or whatever it is, that make people look at your post. I just don’t even understand any of that. And I would rather spend 10 minutes with real people than five seconds on social media. So I do social media to reach people, to impact people’s lives, to wake people up, because in doing that, I think it makes me fulfill a purpose that I just innately believe is why I get the opportunity to be a human being. So this is the stuff.
Til Luchau:
Thank you for that. No. And then on the other hand, I don’t know anybody else who uses social media in the way you do to bear your soul to us, and to share what’s going on for you on the personal level in a way that’s, well, very personal, but really universal.
Sue Hitzmann:
Well, that was on my personal. You’re talking on my personal Facebook page, when Chris died, that was … I mean, the whole thing was just so outrageously, like, “What is happening? How could this be happening?” And I’m a writer. I write in a journal every day. I meditate, and then I come out of that. I sit, I do some breath work, and then I write for half an hour. And sometimes it’s just a bunch of muck. It’s just weird. But every once in a while, there are things that I will write that are so from my heart and my soul, I almost feel like I’m channeling some message that when I read it back, it affects me so deeply. I would put excerpts of my journal on Facebook, and it was one of the things that helped me get through the darkest days of loss. It was definitely the thing that helped me.
I had launched Anatomical Gangster, which was this podcast that I’ve never really gotten to do, but I’ve … have all of these. I’m actually going to put them all up on YouTube, on the Anatomical Gangster. I’m going to just put them up there. I got to speak to all of the mentors and educators that have helped me get through life and have just helped me. And in that, they all came and I said, “Yeah, I want to have these conversations and just talk about whatever.” And it just helped. I think that it really did. It helped me to change my perspective, to find compassion for his family, to find compassion for our situation.
Til Luchau:
This being your husband, who died.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah.
Til Luchau:
Yeah. Right.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah. I think that’s hopefully the hardest thing I’ll ever have to endure in a lifetime. But for sure, by far and away that has forever changed me. Just like when my dad died, you can’t get around death and not think that that’s going to change you. But I feel like a better person because of it. So back to what Aaron had said before, sometimes shitty things have to happen because it’s kind of like they say a lotus flower needs the mud. You can’t grow if it’s not in the mud. So you have to have the mud to let the lotus flower grow. And I really believe that sometimes those hardships change everything.
Til Luchau:
I’m with you. And actually, this occurred to me because I think of you both in different ways, but in this common way that says you’re both sharing your personal process, your personal seeking in a way, in a very public space with a large audience. And if there’s a struggle, for me, it’s just a challenge for me, it’s knowing how to do that, honestly. Being courageous enough to bring it forth. And sometimes that’s the only thing that’s alive. That’s all I can do.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah, you feel less alone.
Til Luchau:
My wife-
Sue Hitzmann:
Right?
Til Luchau:
That’s right. Talking about my wife going through her cancer journey, for example.
Sue Hitzmann:
Exactly.
Til Luchau:
All I can do is get her on the podcast and let’s talk to her about what kind of body work works for her.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah.
Til Luchau:
Because she-
Sue Hitzmann:
And that’s important because the words that we say … The important thing when I wrote those things, and these kind of podcasts that you’re doing, are the people that then write in and it has helped them in some way. Where they’ll be like, “I’m so grateful to read this because I’ve been through a circumstance the same, and I had never thought of these things this way. But now that I’m observing this, this makes so much more sense. And thank you for putting those words in front of me.” And I’m like, “That’s wonderful.” And your wife, and the way that she’s battled cancer and her education on everything that she does, I mean, this is important stuff that people talk about. It helps people.
Til Luchau:
Well, like I said, there’s nothing that’s more real for me. So the challenge for me is how do I live from there and do my work, do my public work, do my teaching, do my podcasting? Here’s a weird phenomenon too, that I wanted to flag as we’re probably kind of wrapping up here. That is the one where people come up to me and say, “Oh, I saw your video.” Turns out it was from 15 years ago. “That was so great. You changed my whatever.” And I’m going, “Okay, that guy is not quite the guy I am today. How do I honor that for them?” And knowing myself, I’m actually saying something pretty different at this point. You two ever face that? How do you deal with that?
Aaron Alexander:
Right.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah, I mean, I was the Crunch – Boot Camp lady. I mean, I had this bootcamp video that’s still out there, and people be like, “I watched your Crunch -Boot Camp video. I used to see you on Fitness.” And it was like, “Oh, well, I’ve evolved a little bit.” I still love the fitness, but there’s other things that I’m very curious about, that as you get older you just find the people who are going to influence you. And you just start, what do you say? It’s like you don’t know what you don’t know until you know it. And then when you know it, you can’t unknow it. And then you probably have 500 more questions. And I got a whole bunch more things to know. So I feel like I’m in that abyss of learning always.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah. Maybe like the … Whatever, more … I feel like I’m regurgitating a lot of philosophical jargon, but the root of suffering is attachment. And if a person is valuing themselves or basing their value off of something in the periphery, it’s fine. It’s not right or wrong, but it will oscillate based off of the weather and based off of the stock market, and based off of the real estate market, and based off of other strangers’ perceptions of you. And probably the only way for a person to learn, that would be to get hurt, and for it to hurt enough that they’re like, “Oh, man, I want to stop doing that.” And then you slip back and then you get hurt again. You’re like, “Okay, I got to really got to stop doing that.” And then you do that over and over and over again until you just slowly whittle that away of like, “Okay, what doesn’t hurt me and how do I invest more of myself into that which does not hurt me?”
And I think that’s a analogy of developing a self-sustaining property is coming to mind. If you’re investing in permaculture, where you can live on your land and you can gather water, and you’ve got some chickens and some bees and some ruminant animals grazing the land, and you’re harnessing resources and you’re sovereign. And you have agency and you’re self-sustaining to some degree, and you can invite people in to your home and say like, “Man, I got this great home that I’ve been working on cultivating for the last 10 years. It feels great in here. It’s spacious, it’s nice. We’ve got resources. You guys are welcome to come over. This is a good time.” That would be one version of existing.
And that could be a person that’s posting stuff on social media or whatever, sharing their art in the street or playing music without attachment to other people’s perception, but just they’re actually doing it for the joy of it resonating with them. That’s like Rick Rubin, he recently had a book come out that kind of gets into that specifically. And then the other version would be having a innate awareness that you are inextricably tied to the teat of culture, or the teat of the electric company, or the teat of the government, or the teat of all these outside resources.
Like me, I’m in an apartment right now. So if my electricity gets taken away or my water gets turned off, or whatever, I get evicted or something, it’s like, “Okay, well shoot.” If I didn’t have a backup plan, if I based my whole livelihood and my value upon this home, that would create some deep subterranean insecurity and subtle anxiety that would just be looming within me. And so I think, again, it comes into a bandwidth thing. What are you investing your bandwidth and where is your attention actually going? And many-
Sue Hitzmann:
Well-
Aaron Alexander:
Oh.
Sue Hitzmann:
… I want to say-
Aaron Alexander:
Hello, that’s my book.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yeah. I mean, have to tell you, anytime somebody-
Aaron Alexander:
Thank you.
Sue Hitzmann:
… writes something where I’m like, “I really love this,” you know what I really love about your book? And I don’t think that if you just saw The Align Method … because again, your tagline is A Modern Movement Guide for a Stronger Body, Sharper Mind, and Stress-Proof Life. And it really is. I mean, I love that you-
Aaron Alexander:
Thank you.
Sue Hitzmann:
… he quotes Hippocrates and all sorts of stuff, and there’s all sorts of stuff. You talk about trauma, and stress, and sleep and how being grateful is important. And then there’s movement. This new one has exercises in it even, breath work.
Aaron Alexander:
Thanks.
Sue Hitzmann:
It’s really a great book. I mean, I really feel like you put a lot of yourself into a book and it’s a lot of information, but it’s useful for anybody. So I thought it was a great book.
Aaron Alexander:
Thank you.
Sue Hitzmann:
I really like it.
Aaron Alexander:
I really appreciate you saying that. And the goal is for it to be really digestible and simple.
Sue Hitzmann:
Yes, easy.
Aaron Alexander:
Because I’m not especially smart. I’m decent at connecting ideas, I think is a virtue of mine. But when things are too complex, I check out. And so with creating a book, my intention was to make it kind of whatever that Einstein quote is, if you can’t describe it to a second grader or first grader, you probably don’t actually-
Sue Hitzmann:
Don’t know it well enough yourself.
Aaron Alexander:
… you probably don’t actually understand it. So the function of the book is really to be written in such a way that you could sit down on the toilet, maybe you have a Squatty Potty, so you’re elongating your rectum and allowing yourself to have a healthy defecation, avoiding hemorrhoids and things of the sort. We write about that in the book, but you’d be able to open up any page and within six sentences, gather something that’s actionable and maybe there’s a little humor in there as well. And it was just very easy to digest, and that was the main intention of it. I so greatly appreciate you enjoying it.
Sue Hitzmann:
I think you nailed it. I really do. I think it’s a great book.
Til Luchau:
We’ll put a link to it in the show notes, of course.
Aaron Alexander:
Thanks.
Til Luchau:
Well, listen, it’s been a great conversation. What do you want to leave us with? What’s exciting in your pipeline? What are your closing thoughts? What do you want to say?
Aaron Alexander:
From me?
Til Luchau:
Yeah.
Aaron Alexander:
Oh, man, I’m just so grateful to get to connect with you guys. Like I said, I’ve studied both of you guys pretty extensively, infused a lot of my perspectives or a product of sitting on the shoulders of not just YouTube, but lots of people. But you fall into those categories. So it’s such an honor to get to connect with you in this way. And it really is super humbling. When you asked me to record, I was like, “Oh, boy, what am I going to contribute to them?” To get to have the opportunity to get share, it’s a very cool thing. So I appreciate that. If it’s something that I would be promoting of mine, the book is a fine thing, the podcast is if you’re into podcasts, obviously you are, that would be a fine thing.
And then we have the first week of the six-week Align Method program, which is the digital version of the book, that goes into how exactly, very specifically, in a very digestible way, to mobilize really all the major joints throughout the body and finding joint neutrality, balance, throughout the system. A lot of breathing dynamics and gait locomotion stuff, teaching a person just how to inhabit themselves with greater ease. The first week of that is free, and that is at alignpodcast.com/amp stands for Align Method program. And I think that would be it. I just really appreciate you guys sharing time with me. Its such a pleasure to get to connect in this way.
Til Luchau:
Likewise.
Aaron Alexander:
Yeah.
Til Luchau:
Well, again, we’ll link that in the show notes. How about you, Sue?
Sue Hitzmann:
Well, we’re always doing all sorts of things with MELT, but in the fall, in the end of October, beginning of November, we have just a couple of spots left, but we’re doing a retreat at Costa Rica. And I’m hoping to also have my friend Mark Macdonald involved in this with his nutrition. And it’s kind of like the hundred days before the actual event, we’re going to have a private Facebook page with a hundred tips over the hundred days, trying to make a 1% change out of a hundred days, until you get to a hundred percent change, kind of an idea. So we’re going to be doing that.
And I had put a bug in Aaron’s ear for next year. I’m trying to figure out ways to collaborate with people that I want to hang out with who have methods, concepts, ideas that can carry into a room of people, so that it’s not just MELT, but it’s kind of a collaboration of somebody doing dance movement, meditation, maybe sound healing, whatever. So I’m in the mindset, I’d love to have more opportunities to do collaborative events than to do solo events as much. I just am maybe at that place in my life where I just want to sink into connecting a little bit more deeply.
Til Luchau:
I’m with you. In fact, if I could just put in that as mine as well. My most exciting thing are the collaborations and like this conversation we’re having now. Doing a fun collaboration with a contact improvisation teacher over the summer. Going to Puerto Rico. Having a retreat there around Thanksgiving, just before Thanksgiving, where we’re doing an expanded, timeless version of what we usually cram into just a little bit of time. So we’re going to stretch it out on the beach in Puerto Rico. And then walking a good section of the Camino de Santiago, over the Pyrenees, with Robert Schleip and a bunch of other fascial teachers next May.
Aaron Alexander:
Oh, cool.
Til Luchau:
Next May, so come join us for a walking workshop on the hoof.
Sue Hitzmann:
I’ll do it.
Aaron Alexander:
How cool.
Til Luchau:
It’s going to be awesome.
Aaron Alexander:
I love that.
Til Luchau:
Anyway, thank you both. Sue, thanks for joining today as my special cohost and-
Sue Hitzmann:
Yes.
Til Luchau:
… Aaron, my special guest.
Aaron Alexander:
Thank you, guys, so much. I appreciate you both.
Sue Hitzmann:
Thanks, guys.
Til Luchau:
Oh, it’s mutual. See you later.
Aaron Alexander:
All right, see you.
Til Luchau:
Books of Discovery has been part of massage therapy education for over 20 years. Thousands of schools around the world teach with their textbooks, e-textbooks and digital resources. Books of Discovery likes to say, “Learning adventures start here.” You’ll see that same spirit here on The Thinking Practitioner podcast, and they’re proud to support our work, knowing we share the mission to bring massage and bodywork community and livening content that advances our profession. Check out their collection of e-textbooks and digital learning resources for pathology, kinesiology anatomy, physiology at booksofdiscovery.com, where Thinking Practitioner listeners like you save 15% by entering thinking at checkout. Thanks, books of Discovery.
